| Tape Number: |
WCWW2-074 |
| Title: |
WW2 Interview with Annette Howards #2 |
| Title Type: |
Element
|
| Format: |
BetaSP
|
| Creator: |
Derks, Mik//Producer
|
| Date Created: |
2002-09-26 |
| Publisher: |
University of Wisconsin Board of Regents//Copyright holder
|
| Subject: |
war
|
Description:
Tape Number WCWW2-074
04:00:43;09 04:00:45;08 [00:00:01:29] WCWW2-074
:keywords:
Annette Howards - interview, part 2
Interview conducted on September 26, 2002
Bernie Howards
Tijuana trip
"Pinned" in the mess hall
First time in Wisconsin
Religion, marriage and husband's death
V-J Day/Changes for women
Back to being a housewife
Difficult adjustment
Becoming independent
Remembering Pearl Harbor
Best time of life
Corsair
Pappy Boyington autographed photo
News from newsreels
Memorial High School
Marine Corps League
Women Marine Association
Women's Memorial
Finally recognized
04:01:09;20 04:03:08;23 [00:01:58:29] WCWW2-074
:Bernie Howards:
Bernie-- and this is from Milwaukee-- I didn't know him by the name of Bernie. It seems that everybody called everybody by their last names, so I only knew him as Howards, and he was just another mechanic on the base. One day one of the fellows came up and, I think there was a basketball game on the base, and so we got talking about basketball, and I said, "Oh I used to play basketball in high school. I had, you know, a lot of fun." and the conversation ended, and in the afternoon Howards comes over and says, "Oh, there's a game on the base. Would you like to go to the game with me?" and I said, "Sorry, I'm not interested in basketball." Sloughed him off. Umm, we were at the swimming pool. My girlfriend Anna and I were there and Howards comes over and says, "There's a good movie on the base. Would you like to go to the movies with me?" "Sorry, I saw that movie." And um, so Anna and I go to the movies and coming out of the movies there's Howards going in the movies. So he says to me, "You be ready tomorrow night. I'm coming to call for you." I think, "Wow, he's really serious. I better be ready." So I got all dolled up, I'm waiting, he never shows up. (Laughs) Never shows up. And so, I called him the next day, and I know I told him... and he said he was so sure that I wouldn't show up that he didn't show up. So after that, we started just walking around the base together, and he asked me-- they were having a beach party. A barbecue on the beach. This is how naive I was. This part should be off the record. They were having this weiny roast on the beach, you know, and we had a good time, and then everybody starts pairing off. It's fine. And Howards says, "Would you like to go down and see the lifeguard station?" I said, "Sure!" We're walking along the beach, walking, I said, "Well, where's the lifeguard station?" The end of that evening, back to the beach (laughs).
04:03:08;23 04:04:36;10 [00:01:27:15] WCWW2-074
:Trip to Tijuana:
Now this is years later-- after we were married sometime-- Bernie and I were talking about our experiences in the Marine Corps, and I told him that two of the young men had asked the gal that I worked with if we would like to go to Tijuana with them to pick out souvenirs for them to send home. And they would treat us to a steak dinner for our troubles. Well, Phyllis and I touhght, "Wow". Meat is very hard to come by-- a good steak dinner, we'd never been to Tijuana, we're going to go to Tijuana with them. And so we did, we went to Tijuana. We had a good time, we helped them pick out souvenirs. They had a car and so coming back, they park. Phyllis is having a good time in the back seat, and I put my purse between Mac and me. We were in the front seat, and I said, "You don't budge that purse," and I moved it close to the door as possible, and I sat there until we were ready to go home. So I was telling this to Bernie, and Bernie starts laughing. What it was, Mac had never been out on a date before, so all the men in the barracks were priming him to go on this date, telling him what to do, and then Mac comes back and he says, "It was a dud. I never got near her. I was the dud." (Laughs) That's the honest truth. The honest truth.
04:04:36;10 04:05:47;00 [00:01:10:18] WCWW2-074
:Men's mess hall:
So we had some funny experiences. Bernie and I went into Los Angeles. We finally started just seeing each other. And he let me know that he had been in the process of being divorced when he went into the Marine Corp, which is why he went into the Marine Corp-- to die for his country. So he let me know that. And we went into Los Angeles and we saw a football game, and we came home in the wee hours because we missed the bus, and he asked me to come to chow with him in the men's mess hall that morning. And I did, and uh... which is very unusual because women were not allowed in the men's mess hall. And I later found out if a fellow brings a gal into the mess hall, it's like pinning her. This is "Hands Off". So that was something. And um, he was discharged in the end of November. He went back to Milwaukee, and I got out the following April, so he had to wait for me to get out of service. We were married April 28, 1946, and the next day I flew out to Milwaukee and I've been in the Midwest ever since.
04:05:47;00 04:05:48;26 [00:00:01:26] WCWW2-074
:Q- Was that the first time you'd been to Milwaukee?:
04:05:48;26 04:06:13;10 [00:00:24:12] WCWW2-074
:First time in Milwaukee:
Yup. Yup. Yeah, I remember I had had furlough, and I had called Bernie to say, "I'm in Milwaukee at the depot," and he said, "Which depot?" I didn't know that Milwaukee had two depots. Well this was a big city, big time. But I had never been in Milwaukee before, so this was my first introduction to Bernie's family, you know? And it was different.
04:06:13;10 04:06:15;22 [00:00:02:12] WCWW2-074
:Q- So had he told you about Wisconsin?:
04:06:15;22 04:08:14;15 [00:01:58:19] WCWW2-074
:Religion, Marriage, Death of Husband:
I want to divert just a minute. Bernie laughingly used to ask me to marry hiim, and I said, "No I can't." I was kind of spoken for back home, and then I said, "You know, besides which, I would never marry out of my faith." Not that I was religious, but my mother had eyes in the back of her head and so she would know what was going on. I said... So he said, "Well what are you?" so I said, "I'm Jewish," and he started to laugh, and I thought he was laughing at me, and he said, "That's it!" he's Jewish too. I said, "What are the chances or two Jews finding each other in the Marine Corp. just like two fire flies?" and um, he was really handsome. But that was, I guess it was just meant to be. You know, it was just meant to be, so we had been married just a two months short of our 55th anniversary, and he passed away last year. But um, so we have five children, nine grandchildren, one great grandchild on the way. And so I have no complaints. I've had a good life, I've made many friends, my women Marine friends have been a source of comfort to me when Bernie became ill. We're there for each other-- three of us within months last year lost our husbands. And we were all there for each other, you know. We show up at the... it's very difficult to explain the comaraderie that the women have, you know? It's very... It's a little different today. You don't have the same closeness that we had then. Maybe that was because it was wartime, it was different. I don't know, I can't put my finger on it.
04:08:14;15 04:08:26;26 [00:00:12:11] WCWW2-074
:Q- Tell me some more about the fact that it was wartime. When you were in the tool crib, were you very aware of what was going on all over the world?:
04:08:26;26 04:09:58;17 [00:01:31:19] WCWW2-074
:VJ Day/Changes for women:
Oh, absolutely, I remember when they said that Franklin Roosevelt had died. I was in the hangar at the time. And when Truman was going to take over and who in the world was Truman, and what was he going to do? My friend had come home on just before V-J Day. He got back from-- he was with Patton's army. He was a medic of Patton's army. He was one of the brothers. And I went to and fro to see him, and I remember it was V-J Day, and the big celebration that they had in New York City. We went to Coney Island at the time-- that's the picture in the book there. We went to Coney Island to celebrate V-J Day. It was over! Almost every household had a blue star in the window. Either a blue star or a gold star, and it was finally over, you know? It was also a very sad time with all the veterans coming back-- the injured veterans. The women-- it was different for the women. Now the women had to leave the factories and go back to the kitchen when the men came to take over their jobs, and it was a difficult time for women to suddenly give up being a supporter of the family, you know. Now they're back to kitchen again. That was a difficult time and I think the whole family system changed then. When women started going into the workforce. You lost something, a family unit.
04:09:58;17 04:10:02;09 [00:00:03:22] WCWW2-074
:Q- Do you think it affected your marriage-- the fact that you and Bernie had worked together?:
04:10:02;09 04:10:28;16 [00:00:26:07] WCWW2-074
:Becoming a housewife:
Oh yeah, you know, when I came.... when we got married, I suddenly became the traditional housewife with the husband, the head of the family, making all the decisions, where for two years I had been on my own making my own decisions and now suddenly he was the head of the family. It all suddenly reverted back to the way it was, and that was a very difficult time.
04:10:28;16 04:10:30;13 [00:00:01:27] WCWW2-074
:Q- Did that bother you?:
04:10:30;13 04:11:19;09 [00:00:48:24] WCWW2-074
:Adjusting to being a housewife:
It was difficult for me in that my husband was awarded custody of his son, who was five years old at that time. And so after two months of marriage, I suddenly became a housewife and a mother. What do I know about little boys? And so it was difficult for me. I had to learn how to cook, know how to take care of house. After two years of everybody doing my thinking for me-- you know, cooking-- it was a big period of adjustment for me, and I think I only came into my being again when I went to work after Bernie came back to Madison and I went to work in the school system. You know, and I found I'm still a very capable woman and people listen to my ideas, and it took me a long time to get back my self esteem.
04:11:19;09 04:11:21;17 [00:00:02:08] WCWW2-074
:Q- Husband's not the same thing as a bunkie.:
04:11:21;17 04:13:16;04 [00:01:54:13] WCWW2-074
:Becoming independent:
No. (Laughs) No, he was the traditional head of the family, and what he says goes. You know. "I'm balancing the checkbook. Out of the kitchen. Don't bother me." And so when he became ill, I had forgotten how to balance a checkbook. My kids... thank God for my kids, um, they gave me the confidence that I could do this by myself, you know. I learned how to balance the checkbook, had to take care of the house, my finances back in order, and they made me feel that I could be a very capable person when given the chance to, and I still needed assurance. It took me a long time, and every once in a while, I still need assurance that I'm capable of doing what I'm doing. They've encouraged me to travel where I'd never traveled before. I never learned to drive because in New York you didn't have a car and of course in Milwaukee, where am I going to go without my husband? What do I need a car for? And it was my son that bought me my first car. A little white Comet on Father's Day. He drove up this little wreck of a car-- three quarters rust-- and he said, "Mom, you're going to learn how to drive," and I learned how to drive this little beat up Comet. It didn't have any radio. It had no... It didn't have a floor. Gary... there was a hole where your foot should be-- the accelerator. And Gary took the top of a shovel, a snow shovel, the metal part of a snow shovel, and he nailed it to the floor. But I had a car, I was independent, much to the chagrin of my husband. But there was a big period of adjustment for me and I had been very thankful for my children. Very thankful.
04:13:16;04 04:13:30;26 [00:00:14:22] WCWW2-074
:Q- Do you remember hearing about the bomb?:
:Howards- Hiroshima? I can't remember. I don't remember. I can tell you I can remember Pearl Harbor, hearing it on the radio.:
:Q- Tell me about that.:
04:13:30;26 04:15:27;02 [00:01:56:02] WCWW2-074
:Pearl Harbor/Christmas in CA:
We were in the dining room and the living room listening to the radio when they interrupted and said that Pearl Harbor had been bombed. Nobody ever heard of Pearl Harbor. All these things happened. They had blackouts. You had to have all your windows covered. All the lights in Coney Island were blackened-- all the lights going out towards the sea, facing the sea were all blackened. You had air raid wardens. We never had that before. It was a different ballgame. It's scary, and you had all these rationings going on. I remember coming home on furlough and before I even got to hug my mother, she said, "Go down to the ration board and get your stamps." And that was important, you know, extra stamps. Coming cross-country on the trains, we'd stop at these little whistle stops and all these women would come to the windows of the train with cookies and little cartons of milk, you know, and give it to us through the window. You know, it's um... and they had USO's then. We knew we could go into Los Angeles and sleep at the Y, the women's Y. And what did we do for amusement? We go to alot of the church socials. They had a lot of square dancing. So I learned to square dance and old time dancing. So there's always a lot to do. I remember at Christmas Eve we all had candles and we'd give them candles, and we went to Dockside-- and this was in San Diego-- and we Christmas caroled at a big-- there was a big ship-- the sailors couldn't get off the ship. And so a whole bunch of us were out there Christmas carolling. It was just something. It doesn't seem like it was 60 years ago. It's unbelievable.
04:15:27;02 04:16:04;23 [00:00:37:19] WCWW2-074
:Q- It was the best time of your life:
:Howards- It was. I made wonderful wonderful friends who kept in touch. I learned values. I learned that what I do affects all those around me. I think that's what made me what I am. I've always been thankful. And I think had I not gotten married and had I been given the chance to stay in service, I would have stayed. But we were never given that opportunity.:
:Q- The Corsair?:
04:16:04;23 04:18:07;19 [00:02:02:22] WCWW2-074
:Corsairs:
Beautiful little fighter plane. Corsair. My youngest son was a Marine, and the only reason he left the Marine Corp was that he was in a very stressful job and he said, "Let me change my position and I'll give you my re-up pay," and they wouldn't let him do it. Cause they felt they had too much money invested in him. He was with missiles. And so he joined the National Guard. Anyway, this is years later, he goes to a fair and he said, "Guess what I found, Mom." He found this little model of a Corsair with the initials on it A.B.G.2, which was the unit that I belonged to-- Air Base Group 2. I said, "What are the chances of you finding a Corsair with A.B.G.2 on it?" So he got all excited and he wrote to the company that made these little model planes and said, "There's a reunion coming up-- a Marine Corp reunion coming up-- how would they like to donate 86 planes as souveneirs to be given out at the reunion?" I said, "Jeff, you're out of your mind. Nobody's going to donate 86 planes." Well, I went to the reunion, I come home, I'm home but a day, and this huge box comes with 86 Corsairs. So now I had the job of mailing out Corsairs to all the people that attended our reunion and making sure that they would thank the company. So now we fast forward and Jeff sends me this book about Corsairs. And there in the book is a picture of a Corsair with A.B.G.2 on it. There actually was a unit called A.B.G.2. That was on the plane. So they didn't just pick the name up out of the sky. I had the actual plane with the actual markings, and so I've collected Corsairs over the years. It just has a very distinctive wing and it's just a beautiful little plane.
04:18:07;19 04:18:12;12 [00:00:04:23] WCWW2-074
:Q- I can just see you in the hanger standing..."
04:18:12;12 04:18:53;18 [00:00:41:06] WCWW2-074
:Air museum in New Mexico:
Also, they just... we went to an air museum. I think it was in New Mexico, and they had all these little fighter planes there on exhibit, and my son-- of course they had ropes all around them, you couldnt' go near to touch them-- and my son went up to the curator and said, "My mom was a Marine and she worked in the hanger where they had Corsairs. She would like to touch the plane." (Laughs) They lifted up the rope for me and I was able to go and put my hands on the Corsair. But yeah, my house if full of Corsairs. If ever you want to come over and look at them, I make cross stitches of Corsairs and pictures and whatever. I collect them.
04:18:53;18 04:19:36;02 [00:00:42:12] WCWW2-074
:Q- Is it a one-seater?:
:Howards- Yes.:
:Q- So you have to fly it to ride in it?:
:Howards- Yes.:
:Q- So you never gotten to ride in one?:
:Howards- No, but it's just a beautiful, very distinctive style plane. And of course my daughter did a one-upsmanship. She found a picture in a magazine where she could buy a photo of Pappy Boyington's Blacksheep crew with some of them autographing the picture, so she sent... that was my Christmas present one year, was this autographed photo of Pappy Boyington's crew with the Blacksheep Squadron.:
:Q- And they flew Corsairs too?:
:Howards- Yeah, absolutely, so I've got that framed in my house.:
04:19:36;02 04:20:18;23 [00:00:42:21] WCWW2-074
:Q- When you talk about Pappy Boyington, these were personalities that everybody knew during WWII?:
:Howards- Oh yes, he was a very famous Marine Corps flyer. An Ace.:
:Q- And did you get that information from the newsreels, or within the Marine Corps?:
:Howards- From the Marine Corps, you hear that from the Marine Corps, you hear it from the newsreels. We were up on everything that all the Marines were doing in the islands. It was a horrible, really horrible time. Like I said, you know, they didn't have television. Everything was newsreels. I remember the grieving when Ernie Pyle died.
04:20:18;23 04:21:02;10 [00:00:43:15] WCWW2-074
:Memorial High School:
I worked at Memorial High School in the Xeroxing department and typed up a lot of the papers there, and social studies. We used to call it History, they call it Social Studies now. They were teaching about World War II as history. To me it was past current events. But I'm coming across this one line, "...and women also served in the service" period. I guess you know they heard from me. In the typing room I had this huge picture of a Corsair on the wall. I had all these posters up so everybody knew. They don't mess around with the Marine Corps.
04:21:02;10 04:21:03;26 [00:00:01:16] WCWW2-074
:Q- You'd take them down, wouldn't you?:
04:21:03;26 04:21:36;06 [00:00:32:10] WCWW2-074
:Marine Corp League:
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. There's a wonderful group here called the Marine Corps League made up mostly of Vietnam vets, and we three women, we belong there. We are kind of the dinosaurs there. But we are treated with respect. One of the women was commandant twice over the men and it's just a wonderful group of people.
04:21:36;06 04:21:41;16 [00:00:05:10] WCWW2-074
:Q- When you told me about when you first discovered the two Marine women...I thought you were going to say that the three of you took down the rest of the room:
04:21:41;16 04:23:03;26 [00:01:22:06] WCWW2-074
:Women Marine Association, cont:
Yes! Oh, they would have had it if they said anything derogatory. We had distinctive jackets that says Women Marine Association on the back, and I've had occasion to wear it at the airport and somebody came up to me and asked me about it. They had never heard of the Women Marine Association. By word of mouth it gets around. My son Gary works in the Orthotics department on Science Drive here, and he was helping one of the ladies there and he mentioned that she spoke with a little bit of an accent. Well, she's from the South. He says, "My mother is from New York City and she has a little bit of an accent too." and so she asked, "Well how come she is in the Midwest?" So Gary said, "Oh she married my father, you know, they were in the Marine Corps together." Well it turns out that she is a former Marine who had never heard of the Women Marine Association. And so Gary gave her my number, we called. We are the best of friends. We went out for a fish fry but she was so excited. She says, "I don't remember anything about the Marine Corps," til she came to one of our meetings, and all these memories flooded back, and now she's joined everything. So by word of mouth it gradually gets around, you know, that there are women Marines here.
04:23:03;26 04:23:31;28 [00:00:28:02] WCWW2-074
:Q- Did you miss it right away when you came back and got married?:
:Howards- Yeah. I missed it. It's a... I wasn't ready for civilian life, to become a brand new bride and a mother, you know, right off the bat. And set up a house. I didn't know for anything. I missed the comaraderie, you know, my second family. I missed that.:
:Q- Tell me about your work uniform:
04:23:31;28 04:25:04;20 [00:01:32:18] WCWW2-074
:Work Uniform:
Work uniform. What we had-- our daily uniform was these cover-alls. They were kind of greenish. Not khaki, but green. And I think some man must have designed them. They were cover-alls with criss-cross straps in the back that came over the front. But, they have three big buttons in the back. So when you're in a hurry, you got five buttons to loosen up. And um, but there were (laughs) I still have my uniform. My full set of dungarees. I have my winter greens that I can't fit into anymore. I'll tell you that we were going to the dedication in Washington and they encouraged anybody who had a uniform to wear their uniform. And one of our gals had just her green skirt and what we called blouse, the jacket. But she didn't have anything else. Well, Connie donated her shirt. I donated the tie, the purse, and the hat so that she had a complete outfit. And I wore my dungarees. I wore my full set of dungarees. That's what I paraded around in-- my dungarees, and I just about fit into it, and so any time I had to go to the restroom, I had to make sure somebody was with me so that they could button up the three buttons in the back. I couldn't reach them anymore! Too much arthritis in my hands. But they still look sharp in their uniforms.
04:25:04;20 04:27:29;01 [00:02:24:07] WCWW2-074
:Women's Memorial:
Even though 60 years had passed, we're all approaching our eighties, and you see these women, they still take pride in, oh, they look wonderful. And, we would walk down the street, they in their greens and I in my dungarees, and people would stop and ask to take our pictures. They thought we were somebody from the living past. The dedication was a very emotional thing for all of us. There were over 30,000 women showed up there. Some with wheelchairs, some with canes, crutches. Sons and daughters showed up in memory of their mother. The Native Americans from Wisconsin showed up wearing their shawls, their beautiful tribal shawls. And one of the speakers was a Navy young lady from World War One. She was like 100 years old, and her son was a retired something or other from the Navy. And she got up there and she spoke at the podium in a very strong voice and then she ends her speech by raising her arms and says, "Go for it!" Everybody just stood up and just cheered and then they had a candlelight march over the bridge. We were all given electric candles, and we were all marching over this bridge. Oh I get, you know, very emotional to think that these thousands of women marching with candles. We weren't marching, we were just walking and talking, and then somebody in front of us evidently was a drill sargeant, and she starts singing cadence. And all of a sudden we found all the people around us started chiming in, you know, singing back to her, and we were marching. It's hard to explain, like 60 years had just melted away, we were marching across the bridge. It was a very emotional weekend, and in fact, they're going to have an anniversary gathering, which I can't afford to go to, but they're going to have the fifth anniversary of the Women's memorial open up the Women's Memorial.
04:27:29;01 04:28:50;27 [00:01:21:24] WCWW2-074
:Women finally recognized:
It was a long time coming. People would come up to us and say, "It's about time you women were recognized." Even today, we no longer march in parades anymore. I used to be a color bearer. Now we sit in back of the convertable and wave to people, but each time we go by, they stand up and they clap for us. You know, we were never acknowledged before. And it's such a wonderful feeling to be finally acknowledged that we did something. We did something-- I look back now-- it was something very unique to get up and leave the security of your home and, you know, go out into whatever. It took a lot of gumption, really. You know, people, "We know why you enlisted." The Marine Corps had more rules than my mother could ever dream of. Between the Marine Corps rules and my mother having eyes in the back of her head, there was no way I was going to do anything wrong. It was a wonderful experience. I think my children are proud of what I did. We don't go around boasting about it, but they know what I did, and that's enough for me.
04:28:50;27 04:29:45;00 [00:00:54:01] WCWW2-074
:Q- And you're proud of what you did.:
:Howards- Yep, there used to be a saying, "Oh your mother wore combat boots." I don't know if you were familiar with that. They used to say that and then Gary would say, "My mother sure did!" (Laughs) I sure did.
:Q- Yeah, you wanna make something out of it?:
:Howards- Right, you know! They were right there. In fact, I just picked up a shirt at this last convention, you know, they had this whole line of Old Navy clothes, you know with all the big logo on it. Well, they had a line of shirts there that said, "Old Marine". (Laughs) I couldn't resist. I got that one for myself and one for my son and sent that to him. I couldn't resist, and he, though he was in the National Guard longer than he was in the Marine Corps, he still ran his unit like a Marine Corps, you know. There was no distinction. You're not a weekend warrior, you know. He made them tow the line |
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| Description Type: |
Log
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| Format Aspect Ratio: |
4:3
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| Format Generations: |
Moving Image/Original Footage
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| FormatLocation: |
Media Library |
| Duration: |
00:28:36;00 |
| Format Colors: |
Color
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| Genre: |
Interview
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| Genre Authority Used: |
PBS PODS
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| Language: |
eng
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| Date Of Record Release: |
2009-11-20 12:30:10 (W3C-DTF) |
| Date Record Checked: |
2009-11-20 |
| Format Tracks: |
track 2: right mono
track 1: left mono
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| Format Media Type: |
Moving Image
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| Alternative Modes: |
No Captions
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| Subject Authority Used: |
International Press Telecommunications Council |
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Annotation:
Cataloged as part of the American Archive Pilot Project |
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| FormatIdentifierSource: |
Wisconsin Public Television |
| Date of Record Creation: |
2009-11-20 12:22:40 (W3C-DTF) |
| Identifier: |
http://wptmedialibrary.wisc.edu//SPT--FullRecord.php?ResourceId=571 |
| Date Last Modified: |
2009-11-20 12:31:15 (W3C-DTF) |
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