| Tape Number: |
WCWW2-073 |
| Title: |
WW2 Interview with Annette Howards #1 |
| Title Type: |
Element
|
| Format: |
BetaSP
|
| Creator: |
Derks, Mik//Producer
|
| Date Created: |
2002-09-26 |
| Publisher: |
University of Wisconsin Board of Regents//Copyright holder
|
| Subject: |
war
|
Description:
Tape Number WCWW2-073
03:00:45;02 03:00:46;26 [00:00:01:24] WCWW2-073
:keywords:
Annette Howards - interview, part 1
Interview conducted on September 26, 2002
Girl in South Bronx
Brothers and friends went into service together
Army Disbursement Bureau
Enlists in Marines
Scared at first in Camp Lejeune
Helping each other
Espirit de Corps
Semper Fi, Mac
No acronym - Women Marines
BAMS
Accepted and protected by male Marines
One good cry
Getting uniform
Marine brainwashing
Boot camp training
Tool Crib/Bastard File
Airplane nose art/Reunions
No recognition as a Veteran
Return to North Island
More opportunities for women Marines today
Patriotism
Other jobs the women did
03:01:31;25 03:01:38;16 [00:00:06:21] WCWW2-073
:Q- You were a girl in Brooklyn?:
03:01:38;16 03:02:44;22 [00:01:06:04] WCWW2-073
:Growing up in New York:
No I was a girl in the Bronx-- South Bronx. I was born and bred in the South Bronx. My parents separated so my mother raised four children by herself. She was very strict-- we had strict house rules, and we lived in a middle class neighborhood-- very ethnic. My brother grew up with friends that he went to elementary school all through high school, so all these boys were just like my brothers, and our home-- our dining room-- was their clubhouse. And when the war came, all these boys decided to enlist. They weren't going to wait to be called up, and so they all went down to enlist. My brother enlisted in the Army. Some in the Navy, one went to Submarine Service, and they were scattered to the four winds, and so I lost all my brothers-- like eight of them-- all at one time, and I had graduated high school in '41, and I did what every girl was expected to do-- graduate high school, work for a year, donate your salary to your parents, eventually get married, and raise a family, period.
03:02:44;22 03:04:13;19 [00:01:28:23] WCWW2-073
:Working for the Army/Wanting to change things:
And I went to work for the Army Disbursement Bureau in Newark, New Jersey. I have to explain-- we lived at the very outskirts of Long Island, so we had to take a bus into Jamaica, from Jamaica, take the train into New York. In New York City- Manhattan, transfer to the train going to Newark, and then get a streetcar going to the office building. And I did that for almost a year and a half and I would sit at a typewriter eight hours a day and I would type forms for the return allotment checks for soldiers. And the reason for return was 'Deceased'. Deceased and deceased. So that was like one thread that was pulling me to do something different. The town before our's in Laurelton was St. Albans, and they had a beautiful golf course, and you could see the golf course from the bus going home, it seemed overnight they changed the golf course into St. Albans Naval Hospital. So now instead of seeing people on the golf course, you would see people in wheelchairs, people in bathrobes would be walking the ground, so that was another pull, and you didn't have television then, and so all your war news came via the newsreels, and they were very graphic, and I remember walking out of the theater with my sister, just walking out crying, and I felt I wanted to do something more to bring my brother home.
03:04:13;19 03:05:54;01 [00:01:40:10] WCWW2-073
:Women's Duties/Enlisting in the Marines:
Women weren't supposed to be patriotics then, other than being a Grey Lady and volunteering at hospitals. And so the army came out with the WACS, and I told my mother, "I want to enlist in the military." And of course, that was a big no-no. Girls just don't leave home. You're expected to follow... know what you're supposed to do... and so I waited. I knew I had to be twenty in order to be on my own. The Navy came out with the WAVEs. I didn't want to be a WAVE. They were, uh, had their boot camp at Hunter College, which was just a stone's throw from where I lived, and I decided I'm going to wait for the Marine Corps. If you're going to go, you're gonna go with the best. This is how I felt. And the Marine Corps. finally opened up its ranks in February of '43. And I was 20 that following December. And so I told my mother, "I'm enlisting in the Marine Corps," and it wasn't that easy. First, I found out I had to get a special dispensation from the Army because it was considered a defense job , so I had to have a special letter from the Army releasing me from my job. I went down in January with my papers and I had to wait till I got this letter from the Army, which finally came in March, and I went right down to the recruiting office, I took my tests, and I was sworn in as a Marine! (Laughs) I couldn't believe it! You know, I passed all the tests and I had all my papers and they said, "Go home, wait for your orders," and I remember walking out and wondering if anybody could tell the difference in me. You know, "I'm not a civilian anymore! No, I'm a private in the Marine Corps."
03:05:54;01 03:07:27;11 [00:01:33:06] WCWW2-073
:First experience in the Marines:
And in May, I got my orders to report to Camp Lejeune, and... I have to divert just a minute... We were brought up in a very strict household. I shared a double bed with my sister who was four years younger than I-- till I was about, oh, 16, and it was kind of an unwritten rule we would never undress in front of each other. We very discreetly turned our backs and... alright, so now I'm enlisting in the Marine Corps. I get on the train, go to Camp Lejeune, and I didn't expect a band to greet us, but I thought that somebody would be there to say, "Good deal-- you're coming," and instead, it hasn't changed. Somebody got on the bus and started to yell at us, and I'm wondering, "Why in the world are you yelling?" You know. "I can hear you. You're right next to me," but, "Get out of the bus. Get your butts off the bus. You stay on the line." I could do that. And you're scared right off the bat. You know, Why are they yelling at you? And um, now we're.... rush us into the barracks. There are 100 women in this barracks-- 99 strangers were given like 10 minutes to shower and dress, and now I'm stripping down, you got a towel that barely covers you, you run into the shower room, and the shower room is one big room with twelve shower heads where people shared... You don't have time to think about discretion. That was a big cultural shock (Laughs). That was my introduction into the Marine Corps. Scared the devil out of me. You know.
03:07:27;11 03:08:45;20 [00:01:18:07] WCWW2-073
:Bunks:
I know it's laughable now, but it was-- you get scared and you wonder, "What in the world did I let myself in for? Why are they yelling?" I learned how to make hospital corners when I was in school-- we had a home economics department, so I figured I could make a decent bunk. Forget it. The Marine Corps has their own system. When they say you can bounce a quarter on a bed, true. Absolutely true. They want their bunks made their way. You don't make your bunk up properly, everybody in your squad gets to strip their beds because of you. So you learn very quickly that what you do affects your whole squad. And so you don't want to be the one that messes things up, and so we learned to help each other, you know. It took two people to make up one bunk. No creases, you know. We checked each other when we had a fallout, you know, "Are your [inaudible] on straight? Are the stockings straight?" But everybody was punished if you did something wrong. You had this big weight of this Marine Corps Esprit de Corps on your shoulders. "You represent the Marine Corps", when every woman marine is going to be judged by you. That's a big responsibility. (Laughs)
03:09:01;22 03:09:22;08 [00:00:20:16] WCWW2-073
:Q- In hindsight, do you think everything in training was designed to...:
03:09:22;08 03:10:05;24 [00:00:43:16] WCWW2-073
:Marine rapport:
Oh, absolutely. You are instilled with the Esprit de Corps of the Marine Corps to carry on that you represent the Marine Corp. No, whatever you do-- if you don't behave in public, all the women Marines are judged by what you're doing. And so you feel a responsibility, and we still do. We still do. We still do. I know if I see a Marine on the street, or if somebody has a Marine sticker on their car, I can walk up to them, put my hand out and say, "Semper Fi, Mac", and he will greet me like a lost brother. You know, it's a very... like they say, you have to have been there, you know?
03:10:05;24 03:10:13;11 [00:00:07:17] WCWW2-073
:Q- I read something you gave Carol about the name, about how they had WACS...:
03:10:13;11 03:10:46;24 [00:00:33:13] WCWW2-073
:Women's Reserve:
Right, right. They had WACs with the Army, the WAVEs for the Navy, SPARs for the Coast Guard-- the Semper Paradas, "Always ready,"-- but the Marine Corp, they asked General VandeGrift what he wanted the women to be known as, and he said, "They are known as Marines." We didn't have an acronym, but they did call us WRs for "Women's Reserve". That was the short. But, we never had-- I'm not going to tell you what they used to call us because that's not nice-- um, but no, we were known as Women Marines. We didn't have any acronym.
03:10:46;24 03:11:21;23 [00:00:34:27] WCWW2-073
:Q- No wait, what did they call you?:
:Howards- Right, you really want me to say it?:
:Q- Yeah.:
:Howards- They called us BAMS. B-A-M-S. And if anybody called me that, I said, "You'd better mean 'Beautiful American Marine', or you're going to get a kick in the shins." (Laughs)
:Q- And what did it stand for?:
:Howards- I'm not going to tell you. (Laughs) I'm not going to repeat that. But we were known as Women Marines. That's what they felt. We're Marines but we just happen to be a woman.:
03:11:21;23 03:11:24;10 [00:00:02:17] WCWW2-073
:Q- And was that acceptance always there?:
03:11:24;10 03:12:38;00 [00:01:13:18] WCWW2-073
:Treatment of Women in the Marines:
Yes, uh, we were the first women unit to be sent to North Island. That's where I was stationed-- at North Island, San Diego. And the men accept us. It took them a while. I think it took them like a half a day to accept that the women could do their part, that a woman mechanic can lug along a big heavy toolbox by herself. She didn't need a leg up to get up on the wings of a plane, she was very capable of doing that. That we women were very capable of doing what the men were doing. And by the end of the day, we were just another Marine, and we were always treated with respect. I don't remember anybody ever harrassing me or saying anything wrong to me. Like I said, they treated us as a fellow Marine. On the base, we were treated as a fellow Marine. Off the base, they changed into big brothers watching you. We knew that if we went out anyplace, if anybody came up to us and started giving us a bad time, if there was a Marine anywhere within earshot, he was right at your elbow. So we always felt kind of protected. They felt very protective of their women. It was very unusual.
03:12:38;00 03:12:57;17 [00:00:19:17] WCWW2-073
:Q- So it was probably like when you were growing up:
:Howards- Right, like big brothers, right. And they respected what we were doing.:
:Q- Do you remember a point in your basic training in which you stopped being afraid and started feeling like a Marine?:
03:12:57;17 03:13:49;03 [00:00:51:14] WCWW2-073
:One good cry:
I had one good cry. Somebody messed up marching, and we got chewed out. And the worst thing they could call you, don't ask me why, but they were called "Bucket Heads". You know, like you're empty-headed. And I went back to my bunk, and I sat and I cried, and I wondered why in the world they chewed us all out and I didn't do a thing wrong. Once I got that one cry out of my system, and then you began to take pride in what you were doing. When we got our uniforms. We finally got our uniforms. Then you felt like a Marine, and everybody marched, you know, and you know, it just all came together. And you felt a certain pride in what you were doing. And you always felt, with apologies to the other services, that you were just one cut above the best. And this is the way a Marine feels, you know?
03:13:49;03 03:13:50;19 [00:00:01:16] WCWW2-073
:Q- Tell me about getting your uniform.:
03:13:50;19 03:14:38;12 [00:00:47:21] WCWW2-073
:Getting the Uniforms:
Like I said, the first day in Camp Lejeune in May, the temperature gets to like 100 degrees, and we all got our winter greens, and we all couldn't wait to get dressed in our uniforms. Putting on a tie and a shirt and buttoned up to the collar-- even down to our leather gloves. And we all went out in this hot sun and took pictures of each other, you know, to send home to say "I'm a Marine." It's very hard to describe that feeling, you know. It sounds like I'm very prideful and boastful, but I guess I am because not everybody was accepted into the Marine Corps. They had very stringent requirements.
03:14:38;12 03:14:40;04 [00:00:01:22] WCWW2-073
:Q- Well they worked hard to get you to feel that way.:
03:14:40;04 03:15:47;05 [00:01:06:29] WCWW2-073
:Brainwashed by the Marines:
Oh believe me, we were brainwashed. I'll tell you one funny thing, how things carry over. Some years ago, I worked for the elementary school. I was a teacher's aide in the second and third class, and the custodian had charge of the lunch room, and he asked for a volunteer because it was getting too much for him. So I volunteered to help out in the lunchroom, and you've got to picutre this big room full of noisy kids, you know, playing lunch trays, and helping one of the kids carry his tray to the table, and the custodian yells out, "Freeze!" and I absolutely froze in my tracks with the tray half up and I didn't move a muscle, and that was his way of telling the kids to quiet down. When he yelled "Freeze", all the kids stopped talking and they'd calm down, but for that one instant, I was back in boot camp, and I froze. You just did it without even thinking. So maybe we were brainwashed a little, I dont' know (laughs), but you just did it automatically.
03:15:47;05 03:15:52;11 [00:00:05:06] WCWW2-073
:Q- They call it training.:
:Howards- I guess so. (Laughs):
:Q- What was your training in boot camp?:
03:15:52;11 03:16:36;13 [00:00:44:00] WCWW2-073
:Boot camp training:
There was a lot of calisthenics. We had to run an obstacle course just like the men, but not like it is today because we weren't replacing... we weren't being trained to fight alongside the man. We were trained to be replacing him so he could go fight. So, we never had to go out to the rifle range to qualify, which is required today. We did go through the gas chambers. We did run through the obstacle course. We didn't have to jump off a high tower into a swimming pool. Some things we did not have to do. We never had to go on long hikes with full packs, but we did have a very strenuous boot camp and some of the gals didn't make it.
03:16:36;13 03:16:37;20 [00:00:01:07] WCWW2-073
:Q- How many?:
03:16:37;20 03:17:59;25 [00:01:22:03] WCWW2-073
:Most women stayed:
A very small percentage. A couple of the gals got really homesick and, you know, got let go, and some of them just didn't make the obstacle course-- they were let go. But 99% I would say made it. And we were given a choice of where we would like to be stationed and I chose aviation because, 1. It was as far away from New York City as I could get, and I didn't want to be stuck behind a typewriter again, and aviation sounded different. It sounded exciting. And luckily, I got my first choice and my bunkie and I were sent to Camp Elliot, which was outside of San Diego, and um, we still had to get up at 5:00 in the morning, and they would put us in these big open truck that had flat sides, and we'd all sit huddled on the floor singing-- trying to keep warm-- and they would truck us into San Diego and they'd put us in this big oversized what looked like a big flat-bottomed motor boat, and bring us over to North Island, and there we were stationed at North Island, and my bunkie became the captain's messenger and she got to ride on these (unintelligible) little scooters that I'd never seen before and I was told to report to the Tool Crib.
03:17:59;25 03:19:47;07 [00:01:47:08] WCWW2-073
:The Tool Crib/Bastard File:
What in the world is a tool crib? [I] had no idea. They said, "Just report to the big hanger and they'll tell you what to do," and um, so I reported to this huge hanger that was full of planes- F4U Corsairs and they were being worked on the Tool Crib. Actually, it was a metal shack backed up against the hanger wall right by the door, and it was maybe 7 feet by 10 [at] the most. And every nook was crammed with tools that I had never seen before, and it had a big open window, which we would pass the tools through, and they said, "You'll learn on the job," and they gave me a book and told me to go back to the barracks and study it. And the only tools I knew my mother had in the kitchen drawer-- was a hammer, a screwdriver, and a pair of pliers. And she mended everything with those, and now I'm confronted with this big array of all sorts of hammers and all sorts of screwdrivers that I had never seen before. And so that was my introduction, I learned on the job, and the only incident I can recall laughing about is somebody came up to me-- one of the mechanics came up to me-- and he pointed and-- pardon my language-- he said, "Give me that bastard." One: He didn't say 'Please'. Two: That's just not a nice word! And so he could tell by my face I didn't have a clue as to what he was talking about, and he said, "It's that big rough file over there," and I went back to the barracks and sure enough, a big rough-cut file is called a Bastard File. (Laughs) So that was one of my introductions to the tools. I know, I know, I can look back and laugh.
03:19:47;07 03:20:37;14 [00:00:50:07] WCWW2-073
:Tool crib, cont.:
But the men were very patient and I did learn on the job, and eventually Bill, who was one of the corporals in the tool room there, was told he was being replaced. So I replaced Bill and he was shipped out. He wasn't too happy about that. But I actually met the man that I was replacing, and eventually there were three of us-- three women-- that worked in the tool crib. And I think it was the best place for me. I got to see everything that was going on, I watched them work on the planes, I would see these big bombers come in and we'd go down the line and look at all the painted figures on the planes-- he had all these insignias-- so we kept track of those. It was just a wonderful experience for me, and I enjoyed it. Thoroughly enjoyed it. There was never a dull moment.
03:20:37;14 03:20:39;25 [00:00:02:11] WCWW2-073
:Q- Some of that nose art got pretty wild, didn't it?:
03:20:39;25 03:21:16;07 [00:00:36:10] WCWW2-073
:Nose Art/Reunions:
Yes. (Laughs) I'm trying to think-- I went to some museum and they had a whole collage of these-- what do they call them-- the nose art, and I did take a picture of them. But some of them were really, really nice. Naughty but nice. But it was a wonderful experience for me. I made a lot of good friends, learned a lot, and we still go to reunions but our numbers have dwindled drastically, but we're like family, and when somebody loses a spouse, we know. Everybody consoles each other.
03:21:16;07 03:22:25;24 [00:01:09:15] WCWW2-073
:Women veterans'/ No recognition:
And my sister has said to-- my sister is four years younger than I-- and she has said to me on more than one occasion, "Why do you make such a big deal out of two years? It was just two years..." But those two years were-- other than being married-- were the best years of my life. I think that really shaped me, made me what I am. I've never regretted it. The only thing that I regret was that we were never given the opportunity to stay in service. Once the war was over, you enlisted for the duration and six months. That's the way they put it. Once it was over, you were handed your discharge papers, you're paid to go home, goodbye, go back to the kitchen. And nobody ever said anything about the women's veterans. We never talked about it when I got home. We never discussed it with my husband's family. Just my children knew that I was a veteran because they wore my field jacket out to shreds, and they saw our uniforms, but I never heard anything more about women veterans or women veterans' rights. We were just another housewife. We became a housewife.
03:22:25;24 03:23:35;13 [00:01:09:17] WCWW2-073
:Women's Veteran's Week at the capitol:
Until, I think, about 15 or 16 years ago, I saw a little blurb in the newspapers that they were celebrating Women Veteran's Week at the capitol-- here in Madison. And I told my husband, "I want to go down and see what this is all about." And I went down to the capitol and there was a Lieutenant came in from Chicago who was going to give a talk, and the room was full of women and she showed slides, and then when she went to change the tray of slides, it slipped and all the slides were scattered on the floor, but the time that it took her to put the tray together, we got to talk amongst ourselves and I asked if there were any women Marines there. Well, 99% of the women there were WACs, and I found two other women Marines. And it was like finding two lost sisters. You know, there were actually two women Marines here in Madison that I could talk to and relate to. And Betty asked me right away, "Did I belong to the Women Marine Association?" I had no clue what that was about. It was a worldwide organization-- never heard about it. So of course I immediately joined, got the jacket, the whole ball of wax, but nobody ever talked about the women veterans.
03:23:35;13 03:24:21;06 [00:00:45:21] WCWW2-073
:Veteran's Day service:
Um, we finally started to get ourselves heard. We were invited to the capitol for a Veteran's Day service, and I remember-- we don't have uniforms, but we kind of wear red jackets and dark skirts, and we look alike. We do have uniform hats, so... and we were walking down State St. We were going to find a place to eat and this gentleman comes up to us and says, "Boy you ladies from the Salvation Army look great." In one of the restrooms they asked us what orchestra we belonged to. There are-- I know-- there are people today that don't know that there were women Marines in World War II.
03:24:21;06 03:25:37;26 [00:01:16:18] WCWW2-073
:Return to North Island/Oopportunities for women:
We went back to San Diego two years ago at a reunion. We went back to North Island. There was nothing there that we recognized. First of all, they had a Coronado Bridge, which was never there before. The only way you could get to North Island was by this little ferry boat that we called the Nickle Snatcher. And they had a trolley car that ran on one track back and forth from the base to Coronado. It was a very exclusive resort, and there was just one little part of the beach that we could go on. And we looked at the hangers-- the hangers weren't there anymore. We go on the base, there's a McDonald's on the base! The barracks were gone. They had brick buildings now where two women shared like a room. We never had that before. It wasn't the same, you know? They couldn't even... Even the ferry boat was different. It was larger than our little Nickle Snatcher. They had buses now that took you on all (??) of the base. What we had were called Cattle Cars. They were like big trucks with just a big open doorway that would transport you from the dock to your barracks. And we called those Cattle Cars. It was different.
03:25:37;26 03:26:57;27 [00:01:19:29] WCWW2-073
:The Mess Hall:
We were invited to eat in the Mess Hall. The Mess Hall then was a huge building with long benches, I mean, long tables and long benches. And at the end of each table we had two pitchers-- one filled with coffee, and one filled with milk. And we go into this Mess Hall-- commissary now-- and it was like walking into an exquisite hotel dining room. They had tables and chairs-- separate tables and chairs. They had a salad bar. They had a dessert bar with cookies and cakes and pies. You didn't like the entree of the day, you could go over and order a hamburger or a hotdog. No more coffee or milk, but they had this huge line of machines so that you could get your coffee or latte or hot chocolate or any kind of cold drink. This is not the Marine Corps that we knew! And we spoke to two women there in uniform and they looked like they were just out of high school, and it turns out they were helicopter pilots. Isn't that something? The opportunities that are open for women today. It's just amazing! Just amazing.
03:26:57;27 03:26:59;22 [00:00:01:25] WCWW2-073
:Q- Because you laid the groundwork...:
03:26:59;22 03:27:55;18 [00:00:55:24] WCWW2-073
:Rosie the Riveter/Patriotism:
But you know, we just never thought of that. Like I said, nobody every spoke about the women veterans. They just kind of weren't there anymore. And this is why I think Rosie the Riveter (laughs) gets us up there. You know, you hear a lot about Rosie the Riveter, which was wonderful. The women went to work in the factories. But you didn't hear a lot about women in the service. It wasn't really accepted that women could be patriotic. I mean, there's only one reason why they're go into the Marines and why they're going into service. They kind of likened us to camp followers, which was wrong. It was so wrong, you know. A lot of women enlisted for patriotic reasons. Some of them because their husbands went into service, their boyfriends, some of them just wanted to get off the farm, but mostly it was patriotism. Just good ol' fashioned patriotism.
03:27:55;18 03:27:59;14 [00:00:03:26] WCWW2-073
:Q- You were in the tool shed. What other jobs did women do?:
03:27:59;14 03:29:02;04 [00:01:02:16] WCWW2-073
:Women's Job/No marriage allowed:
My friend Anne worked in the parachute loft. She was a parachute rigger. The women worked as mechanics just alongside the men. They did repairs on the planes. My husband-- my husband-to-be then-- worked on the oxygen crew and installing oxegyn units, and he had women helpers. They did everything the men did. Maybe even better. (Laughs) But they did everything. It was a wonderful time. Once you were brought into the Marine Corps, you could not marry. Once you marry you were out. You could not be married to another Marine. Nowadays, I think I was shocked when I heard a maternity uniform. Imagine that! That was unheard of. And now you can have families. It's just different.
03:29:02;04 03:29:08;01 [00:00:05:27] WCWW2-073
:Q- Tell me about meeting your husband:
:Howards- (Laughs).: |
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| Description Type: |
Log
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| Format Aspect Ratio: |
4:3
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| Format Generations: |
Moving Image/Original Footage
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| FormatLocation: |
Media Library |
| Duration: |
00:28:23;00 |
| Format Colors: |
Color
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| Genre: |
Interview
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| Genre Authority Used: |
PBS PODS
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| Language: |
eng
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| Date Of Record Release: |
2009-11-20 12:18:09 (W3C-DTF) |
| Date Record Checked: |
2009-11-20 |
| Format Tracks: |
track 2: right mono
track 1: left mono
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| Format Media Type: |
Moving Image
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| Alternative Modes: |
No Captions
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| Subject Authority Used: |
International Press Telecommunications Council |
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Annotation:
Cataloged as part of the American Archive Pilot Project |
|
| FormatIdentifierSource: |
Wisconsin Public Television |
| Date of Record Creation: |
2009-11-20 12:11:55 (W3C-DTF) |
| Identifier: |
http://wptmedialibrary.wisc.edu//SPT--FullRecord.php?ResourceId=570 |
| Date Last Modified: |
2009-11-20 12:22:31 (W3C-DTF) |
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