Description:
Tape Number WCHFT008
02:00:43;19 02:00:44;26 [00:00:01:07] WCHFT008
:keywords:
World War II
Home Front
Kurt Peckmann – interview
Continued
Interview conducted on December 3, 2002
former German Prisoner of War
POW Labor
Drafted
Captured
Slave labor France
Emigrated from Germany
shoot date: 12-3-2002
transfered from Hestad laptop: March 2004
02:00:44;26 02:01:00;10 [00:00:15:12] WCHFT008
:Q-Labor Shortage?:
02:01:00;10 02:02:37;00 [00:01:36:18] WCHFT008
:POWs Benefit:
And all that, managers, benefit to them that the POWs were here because they couldn't get any help. Just like with the factories the canning companies, they had to hire school kids. And the hemp mills, they hired anybody that could get ahold of it, and then all the POWs came and every one of them was a good worker and so they had no problems whatsoever. And, like I said before, the milk company that we turned out 3 times as much milk out as the civilians did, that the high school kids did, see. Matter-of-fact, when we came in the first week there, the owner, or the manager at the factory, he took us out for dinner in town, in American restaraunt in Juneau, and I got a photo in there too, where German POWs eating in a restaurant, can you imagine? Prisoners of war, people coming in there with the POWs on the back there, going in a civilian restaurant, see, should have known. Of course, there was a certain anxiety in the public that the POWs, Nazi POWs, they all believed that we came here with horns on our heads and, but it wasn't so. We turned out very useful, boys like the rest of them there. Nazis, what's important is that we were in the German army because we had followed orders, just like the American army followed their orders, we do the same thing.
02:02:37;00 02:02:52;23 [00:00:15:23] WCHFT008
:Q-How Old & What Type Of Unit?:
02:02:52;23 02:04:22;03 [00:01:29:06] WCHFT008
:Drafted and Russian Front:
First of all, after I got drafted my draft number was deferred a little bit because I had to finish a job, that job was when I cut granite that was for Hitler's congress building in Berlin, see, and that one had to be done yet. And after that job was done, I finished that one, then a week later I was drafted, see, and I was drafted in the army and I had to go to (??) what is 7th Infantry, Infantry Regiment that was in (??) see, and then we got our training and bootcamp and from there we went to Yauer(sp?), that is a town near my hometown, there where we got stationed, and there we came in railroad cars, and railroad trains and out east, to the Russian front. Then if, it was infantry unit with 1,200 men, a full battalion and I even went on the railroad right along the Verdun and I hollered over there, goodbye (??) leaving granite work, I don't know when I come back, and so I hollered at the people (??) they didn't know me anymore. From there we came to the Russian front, and so.
02:04:22;03 02:04:24;07 [00:00:02:04] WCHFT008
:Q-How Old Were You?:
02:04:24;07 02:04:42;00 [00:00:17:23] WCHFT008
:19 Years Old:
I was 19 years old. I got drafted in 1943. Matter-of-fact, no, I was drafted in 19, I became a POW. 1921 I was 19 years old, 19 years old when I got drafted, see, and...
02:04:42;00 02:04:44;25 [00:00:02:25] WCHFT008
:Q-Captured, How Old?:
02:04:44;25 02:06:41;04 [00:01:56:05] WCHFT008
:Capture:
I was captured in 1943. I was 21 years old when I got captured. Down in Italy by the British Aid Army. That was after the second trip from Russia, I was coming down there because I was to go down to Africa. With my frozen feet I couldn't g out east anymore, so that's why I came down to Africa. Africa was always, just on the brink, the brink of uh, collapsing, the African front, that's why I came down to Africa through Italy, see, and between the, there was a Gustav Line, there was a catch-up line between Naples and Cassino that they called the Gustav Line. See the regular army unit, the company is supposed to be 250 men strong. Our whole company was only 18 fighting men, and we had about 500 to 600 British against us, so what can you do? They covered us for four hours with artillery fire and everything else they could throw at us, and they got me out in the (??) in front, in no-man's land, and after 4 hours of artillery fire, they bombarded us, everything they could throw at us at the end. The next morning or day after I got captured there, the first thing you raise your hand up and they bark at you "Hands up, hands up." All at once, there were 4 or 5 guys over you, just like fleas or lice and then they grab your bill-fold, they grab your pockets, I had hand grenades in my pocket, and 200 rounds of machine-gun bullets around my neck, I was second machine-gunner. And then one of them grabbed my wristwatch right away and also my fountain pen and that was it. "Let's go." Put my (??) in my bag and "Let's go!," you don't argue. You go.
02:06:41;04 02:08:37;20 [00:01:56:12] WCHFT008
:The Worst Part:
And that was the worst part actually of my whole POW time because you do not know as a prisoner of war how trigger-happy that fellow is. Just one mistake and that little finger slip and then you get four or five bullets in your back and I want no part of it. And that was the most dangerous part because of it. And it was pitch dark. They could shoot you anytime just to get rid of you, see, so and it doesn't bother to take you back, see, but, I still remember that night. Next morning, I had to sleep with the rest of the, I was the only one that got captured that night, with the rest of the British soldiers there. They were on top of the mountain ridge there, I was laying right in between them there out in the open, see. And next morning I see what those guys had against us. I said to myself "Germany, you are done for. You are done for." No use to fight anymore, see, because there were trucks and there were soldiers just like fleas all over European. Ammunition, ammunition, ammunition that was impossible to uh, and how do they get it there? They got it there, on the island of Sicily and then Italy over there and then on the side of Italy by Naples there. Where were the Germans there? Did, did they sleep that they got, that someone lands there? Then I knew quite well that Germany was licked. So, why fight anymore with them? From then on make the best of it. And that is, I got through, so far, being, I enjoyed it.
02:08:37;20 02:08:55;12 [00:00:17:22] WCHFT008
:Q-Surprised How Many Germans In Wisconsin?:
02:08:55;12 02:09:28;22 [00:00:33:08] WCHFT008
:Many spoke German, hospitality:
Well, yes and no, because we knew that there were a lot of Germans here but we didn't know there were that many, because no matter where you talked to or any farmer, "I talk German, he sprechen Deutsch." And so-on and so-forth and we were at home. Because we didn't talk much English and why should we because they are talking English, or German to us, so, and they brought us candy and pop and cigarettes and whole cans of soda brought out the field, wherever it was, and we enjoyed it.
02:09:28;22 02:09:31;13 [00:00:02:21] WCHFT008
:Q-Visits At Camp?:
02:09:31;13 02:09:46;09 [00:00:14:26] WCHFT008
:Civilians Against The Law:
No, that was against the law. They could not visit, not in our camp. It might have been that they could in somebody else's, somebody else's camp, but not our camp. Our camp was strictly against the law that civilians could come in.
02:09:46;09 02:10:06;25 [00:00:20:16] WCHFT008
:Q-Unhappy About Leaving?:
02:10:06;25 02:12:00;08 [00:01:53:09] WCHFT008
:You're Going Home:
That is true. That was all I would say, all single guys who are not married fellows, when we left America here, they told us. When we were in the nightshift, pardon me, nightshift in the Juno milk company, the farmer's co-op there, the camp commander came and he came at midnight there, and he said, "Boys, close up, lock down the machinery, shut 'em off. You're going home." Still, today we are wondering how come we should cut them down right now, why don't they let us finish, why doesn't he let us finish the shift, because we had to wait two weeks yet in Camp Hartford before we went to Camp Changs (sp?). Why couldn't we finish that shift? No, we had to close everything down and go. Then, of course, we were happy we could go back to Germany again now, but that was a different story again, see, altogether because, first of all, I was homeless. My hometown was Polish now, Russian and Pole and with the Russian occupation zone so I wouldn't want to go there no matter what, see. Where can I go, see? And we ran to, back to camp in Hartford. There we were given almost brand new uniforms. Get rid of the, what we had. They were still good! No, get rid of them completely. Get brand new uniforms there, American uniforms, army uniforms and then, with the POW stencilled on your arm and on your back and on you knees on you back seat there.
02:12:00;08 02:13:37;00 [00:01:36:20] WCHFT008
:Tetanus Shots and Laying Around:
And we were given shots of, tetanus shots and any kind of medical needles we get. And you go in the hallway, one guy stands here and here and they let you have it. The American army gets you in the arm, the German army gets you the shots right here in your breast-bone, and the French army gets you right in the neckbone. And oh that hurts, especially if you are in a bunkbed, three, four bunks up and yet you want to run down and it feels like your arm rips out. From there we came to, from Hartford then we came to Billy Mitchell Field, on the airport there. Didn't do any work more, of course, we were just laying around until they got all the paperwork together. Maybe for two weeks we were laying there looking out the window at the airplanes taking off, every single, interesting force to see. 02:12:55;29 From there we came then on a train again and, and right over here in America we travelled by Pullman bags only, on Pullman trains only. German army used to travel by caravan and here Pullman bags. We had it made. And from there we came to Camp Fort Custer. From there we, maybe after a week, we were put down on the train again and the we came to Camp Changs (sp?). That is a going overseas camp by New York. And there we were on about 5,000 men on one big two-tons boat.
02:13:37;00 02:14:38;09 [00:01:01:07] WCHFT008
:Missing America:
And that is when the told us, "You have to go...We have to un, unload you in Le Harvar (sp?) because Bramhaufen and Bramen (sp?), those harbors, German harbors, all destroyed, so we can't unload you there." So they told us we go to Le Harvar (sp?), but Le Harvar (sp?) was useless, leveled out like the rest of the harbors. They wanted to keep it quiet, in Le Harvar (sp?).02:14:03;23 Then we pass the Statue of Liberty, over here. Most of us now had tears in our eyes because we fell in love with America. We know, you don't know if you see America again and they were treating us nicely and everything was so beautiful over here and now you don't know what to expect over in Europe. We didn't expect it, we found out shortly afterwards when they unloaded in Le Harvar (sp?).
02:14:38;09 02:16:24;03 [00:01:45:20] WCHFT008
:Camp Solarie:
And there we came to Camp Solarie (sp?). And there, rainy, nasty, dirty, filthy, in tents. Lay everything on the floor here. Whatever you had. All your uniforms they took away, except your underwear, because the French army needed those uniforms. They took everything away that we had, from knick-knacks and love, articles and little chains and rings and little hearts with a picture in it, just take it. They took everything away. Every single cigarette they took away, you could keep two packs of cigarettes and some of those guys had 30, 40 sticks of cigarettes. I lost about 3, 4 sticks of cigarettes, I could keep 2 packs, that was it. But, later on, and including all 70 they told us, "Throw it away." There's a pit over there, about 10-foot by 10-foot. Throw it away, because the French would not get it, because they are so mean and took everything away so there were, by the millions practically, of cigarettes went in there and burned them up. Shoe polish, aftershave, aftershave cream and lotion and on, everything went in the pit. We called it the, the eternal pit, the eternal flame, that's what we called it, because everything was burning, cigarettes and everything. And then, because we didn't want to give the French.
02:16:24;03 02:17:44;11 [00:01:20:06] WCHFT008
:Camp Valet:
(Cough) After there we came then to Camp Valet (sp?). That was another camp that is closer to Paris. And in Camp Valet (sp?) we were sleeping in an old half-tumbled down factory. Clothes, linen factory I think. Uptown, up the other, actually about a block away was the factory that was still working, it had French civilians working in it, but it had one more that we had to eat there, two or three red beets a day, cooked red beets a day, with the dirt and everything on it. It was our food. We had a cup of coffee that was just nothing but colored water. No running water what-so-ever and toilet, you have to go, you have to drop everything in a, a channel of water that run through there, maybe 10, 15 feet wide. Everything from the factory up there running through there, and then you tried to wash your clothes or wash your face with it. No way, and nobody go sick, that surprised me.
02:17:44;11 02:18:33;20 [00:00:49:07] WCHFT008
:Pall-Bearer:
And from there we came then in...oh, and then one day I was a pallbearer for, pallbearer for three German POWs who escaped from Brittany, northwest of France, they escaped in a train. And shortly before our town there, our campout, that train, that railroad car caught fire. It had a hot axle. And those three guys burned to death, and there was nothing you could claim together, you'd put in a little suitcase, all three were dead. Didn't even recognize who they were. I was pallbearer there, see, and smelling too, the burned flesh and it's a bad memory.
02:18:33;20 02:21:13;04 [00:02:39:10] WCHFT008
:Slave-Labor In France:
From there I went...a farmer came, farmer's son came and picked me up to go on the farm. By the way, when we came first America, or to France, they told us every POW who come from America, there were about 450, 500 thousand over here, POWs, you had to work at least for three months in France, you help rebuild France. We'd never seen France in our lives before, we didn't do any damage in France, it was different units. But we came from Africa and from Russia, Russian front. Didn't matter. The French, they, we had to go on the farms there, four guys on the farm, French farm, it was a German hater, I don't know why, we didn't do anything to him. We did our work and I worked there about three years in France. I didn't get one red cent for our work, it was strictly, it was worse than slave labor. We got, he wouldn't give us any clothes, nothing. I had one pair of socks that I wore for three years, I had red socks, and we had to patch everything on the bottom. The linen would be cut off from his machinery there, so we got some. We didn't have any needles or thread to sew with so we went in his machine shop and he had those transmission belts that we made our homemade knife and you cut on the side and then you pull the strings and it was very, like I don't know, it wasn't, heavy linen stock. We had no needle and I brought along from America one of those keys where you open up a sardine can. We straightened it out, a hole was in it, you filed on the stone a point, and then you had a needle, it was just like a little fence post. It was a needle. And then the thing is, then we had sewed our clothes. Three years I had one pair of pants. The milking, when you milk 68 cows three times by hand, you can tell that the milk sprayed around at me, on your knees, the cheese was very thin. You put those clothes at night in the corner and then when you take them out the next morning when you come in, it was standing there, alone. The flies there, flies around there to no end, so. That was in France.
02:21:13;04 02:23:29;12 [00:02:16:04] WCHFT008
:AWOL and Girl:
In France I went AWOL, as a POW, later on. Before I became a prisoner of war, I was dating a girl, before I even; when I came from the Russian front down to Italy, I was stationed in a little town in western Germany and there a little girl smiled at me, you know. I didn't date her just maybe a couple times, but she wrote me all the time as a POW and I got it in the book back there, every letter and card that she wrote me, I put it down. And one day, in 1948, she wrote me. Her sister invited me to the wedding, to her wedding. I was a POW, how do you get away? I went away, I went AWOL in France. I went to the railroad ticket in my dirty clothes there. Went to the depot and bought me a ticket to go just over the border, to western Germany. And the guy asked me, "How you get back into Germany? Where's your passport?" "I get it when I come back in," because (??). As soon as I got on the train I went over the border, "Bye! Won't see me again." You know. And I went then to my, I didn't have a home. I didn't know where to stay. And here I was homeless. And then I went to my girlfriend's house there, she picked me up at the railroad station there, see, and, I told her then, "I go back to America." She didn't like it. I told her, if you wanna' marry me you have to go with me to America, and she didn't like because she never was away from home. So, uh, two weeks later, or 8 days later she told me, "I go with you to America." So that was in 1948, in 1949 we got married and then we made application to come over here to America. And I came in 1952, I came finally over here.
02:23:29;12 02:23:35;03 [00:00:05:21] WCHFT008
:Q-You Had To Have A Sponsor?:
02:23:35;03 02:25:29;22 [00:01:54:15] WCHFT008
:Trip To America:
Yes. (Cough) While I worked on the camp in Lodi a farmer say "Kurt, if you wanna' come back after the war, I sponsor you to come over here." "Oh, that's marvelous!" see? He had to find, after if was so far and I went back to France, then and back to Germany, I wrote back, we wrote each other back and forth. Then, when go so far, to go for the papers, he had to sign a paper with the government, and guarantee that I do not fall to the burden of the government for the next two years. Fine. And I had to sign it, and I would work for him, see? And he borrowed me $500. Matter-of-fact, I didn't see any money of it. He paid the trip over here that was $420, was the trip for my wife and me. In the meantime I was married and he had to sponsor for my wife too, see. And the trip was $420, so I had $80 spending money from what the travel agency gave me then in New York. Then we went on the train then to come over here, see. And then he charged me then yet from the station, from Camp Ellis, not Camp Ellis, Ellis Island, had to go through. He had to charge me then $15, he had to bring me from there to the railroad station to put me on the train because I didn't speak any English, my wife didn't speak English either. He brought us there then and we came to Lodi by railroad.
02:25:29;22 02:27:24;20 [00:01:54:24] WCHFT008
:Farm Didn't Work Out:
It was, of course, to me it was nothing new because I had travelled that distance before already, see, to Illinois, but to my wife it was new, see. She never was away from home, because she had a large family at home and she had to leave all her family and all her friends at home, see, and that was hard for her, see, and I was (??) that she went so far, see, but. And actually we dated only a few days and then we were gone, but we wrote each other all the time, see, so she agreed to marry me so we married in 1948 and then came over here. And the farmer, he sponsored us, but it didn't turn out the way it should, because he wanted my wife, with me, alright, I worked on the farm, that was nothing new to me, before, I worked on the farm before already. He wanted my wife to work for nothing. Cooking for 11 people and cleaning a nine-room house for nothing, just because she was sleeping with me. (Cough) Pardon me. That didn't work out that way because she didn't have to work for nothing in Germany, why should she go to America and work for nothing here? And didn't work out, though in the meantime I had a job, insurance, the farmer had to take life insurance out for me. And the insurance agent told me what trade, I ssaid I'm a stone cutter. He said "Oh, I know a place for you to go, in Madison." So after about 9 months or a year of the, uh we said we are going to Madison. That's when I started working for the Majelt(?) in Madison for 18 years, for monument maker.
02:27:24;20 02:29:27;03 [00:02:02:09] WCHFT008
:Starting The Business:
And then, it clicked. "Kurt, the American dream is start your own." Then, without a scratch, without borrowing one single penny, I started my own business in 1971. I have been, since that time, I have been without work 2 days. I never, ever collected a penny unemployment, I never collected a penny of any social help whatsoever. And I started my own business and we are top-notch now in Wisconsin. And we have about, on the average, about 8 people working all year round and making monuments. We did a beautiful, big military monument. We made, uh, we had an army memorial in Milwaukee that's 30-foot tall. The pilings go 90 feet down in the ground, on the lakefront there. We did, in Plover, the Korean War memorial. We did, down by Beloit, the memorial for the Wisconsin Congressional Medal of Honor winners. A little memorial by Mt. Horeb. A little war memorial, another one by Lodi, we all finished. We done the law memorial on the square for the police, with I didn't even, I brought up that I don't want to bring them up because.some policemen. And now we are working on a memorial for DeForest and Waunakee, for the putting up memorial. Another big one that's coming up, that goes down to, what is it? Uh, Georgia, there's a big one for the 117th Infantry that we are putting, we are working on that one too.
02:29:27;03 02:30:29;11 [00:01:02:08] WCHFT008
:Awards:
So, we get enough work to do and, as I said, I have been in the scouting. Both of my boys, I have two sons, were in scouting. Both of them Eagle Scouts. I, for my work in scouting, got the highest decoration that, I got that one too, so. And besides that, for all my work, what I did for the veterans, I got a one-time Order of the, uh oh it is a certificate for the Purple Heart, I got that one too. And that is the only one, to my knowledge, the only one in the United States history that an ex-POW gets the Purple Heart for doing it. That is the only one I know of, so.
02:30:29;11 02:30:34;16 [00:00:05:05] WCHFT008
:Q-Gave You Purple Heart Because...:
02:30:34;16 02:31:14;24 [00:00:40:06] WCHFT008
:why received Purple Heart citation:
Well, I, I work with, not the Purple Heart, direct citation, Purple Heart citation, because I wasn't in the American army. If I was in the American army I would have gotten it, see, but I was a civilian, an ex-POW, and I heard the American, about every one of those monuments, they got one for (??) one for (??) that is the award, what I got from the veterans, Purple Heart certification. So, oh god, there's many things |
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