Description:
Tape Number WCHFT007
01:00:59;08 01:01:00;07 [00:00:00:27] WCHFT007
:keywords:
World War II
Home Front
Kurt Peckmann – interview
Interview conducted on December 3, 2002
former German Prisoner of War
Camp Ellis
Camp Hoopeston
Camp Hartford
Rice Lake
canning
harvesting
working
shoot date: 12-3-2002
transfered from Hestad laptop: March 2004
01:01:00;07 01:01:10;05 [00:00:09:28] WCHFT007
:Q-Captured in Italy?:
01:01:10;05 01:01:35;00 [00:00:24:25] WCHFT007
:Capture Date:
K - No, I was captured at the, November the 6th, 1943 by the British Aide Army. So they underneath American 5th Army and we had to, after two weeks, they delivered us to the American 5th Army. And that is why I came over here to America. We were on a boat with about 500 men and 15 officers, but the officers were kept separately.
01:01:35;00 01:01:39;08 [00:00:04:08] WCHFT007
:Q-Apprehensive about America?:
01:01:39;08 01:02:17;25 [00:00:38:15] WCHFT007
:US different that thought it would be
K - Well, that's a good question because all you read is America is a great big country and everything is wide open, we don't know and we didn't get any information about America whatsoever...this was a strange country to us and if you come from the far eastern part of Germany and everything is new to us. Actually, we're very happy to come here. Later on we found out that, that was even better yet because America turned out entirely different than what it used to be, what we were told in Germany, the propaganda...
01:02:17;25 01:02:20;20 [00:00:02:25] WCHFT007
:Q-What Were You Told?:
01:02:20;20 01:04:15;00 [00:01:54:06] WCHFT007
:Different Camps:
K - Well, mostly that the Wild West and the gangsters and everything else over here. Well, see it wasn't that way, so. It was a beautiful country when we came here to...we came to Norfolk. The week before New Year. Between Christmas and New Year we came to Norfolk. And there we came and then, by train, from there to Chicago, from Chicago to Camp Ellis, Illinois. (Coughs) At that time, Camp Ellis was, wasn't in the (?), and then they build it up in 1943. It used to be then the largest troop-training camp in the United States. We had 75,000 GI's there training for going to Europe and to Japan, and 3,000 German POWs and 2,000 consciencious objectors, American GI's there. And they were kept more strictly behind barbed wire than we were. We could go out and work out by the camp and so on and so forth(?). From there we came to Camp Hoopeston Illinois. 01:03:35;24 There is a little branch camp. We were then shipped out to different towns just like migrant workers. And there were about 240, 250 fellows there to Camp Hoopeston in Illinois. We were sleeping in downstairs department of big barn, or a big canning company shed. And we worked, we went out 6 o'clock in the morning, cut asparagus for 2 hours and then we were done for the whole day, and then we played around, played ball and cards and everything else.
01:04:15;00 01:06:29;14 [00:02:14:10] WCHFT007
:Escaped POWs:
K - At that camp 3 POWs escaped. Foolish any of them to escape. Where would they go? They wanted to go actually down to South America because South America was, Brazil and Argentina was German friendly and they wanted to go there and then go back to Germany again, but then what? If you come back to Germany again they would be court-marshalled and then put in. They get the army uniform again without weapons, without anything there and then they were put on the frontline with a pick and shovel to dig the dugout for the German Army. But after three days they got caught. They went, one of Southern states, I don't know which state it was. And want to get some milk or some food by farmers here, and the farmer heard about it already, that they escaped, and then he called the sheriff up and the sheriff told them "Come on, come with me, we'll go back to camp." But the funny part of it was, those guys had to go to work, no, they didn't go to work anymore. See, when we went out 6:00 in the morning to go asparagus, cutting asparagus, they looked out the window and just waved at us, see. And they got sentenced for two weeks water and bread, and we were so big and fat anyhow, it didn't bother them any. But the funny part of it was we were counted twice a day, the morning and the evening, and it took the guy three days to find, to count, to find out they were gone. Because we stand, five, ten, fifteen, twenty in a row, five deep. Before you were standing apart but that time we knew it, that they were gone so we squeezed shoulder-to-shoulder so they couldn't look through us. In the meantime the guys in back, they put up there...and that way we covered it up those guys were gone. Didn't do them any good anyhow, they got...they didn't get sentenced to any prison term. We were prisoners of war anyhow.
01:06:29;14 01:06:33;29 [00:00:04:15] WCHFT007
:Q-How Did You Come To Wisconsin:
01:06:33;29 01:08:50;22 [00:02:16:19] WCHFT007
:Workers Strike:
K - 01:06:34;01 Well, from Camp Hoopeston in Illinois. 01:06:38;20 In Camp Hoopeston Illinois also I, (Pause) On the mail delivery I heard the name Billy Schmidt called and the name Billy Schmidt rung a bell someplace. And there I found out it was my boss I learned the granite cutting from in Germany, and I met him here as a prisoner of war. He was captured down in Africa and then he came...we were there about two weeks together and then we came apart again. 01:07:07;22 But from there, after the asparagus harvest we came to, all the same group again, up to Barron, Rice Lake. Up in Barron, we were at the pea harvest. And the pea harvest was not ripe yet, the peas were not ready yet to be harvested, see, but just when we started out, rolling, in other words the peas were cut and then bring to the vinery and so on, we striked. POWs striked because we moved through before ahead already, and then our paycheck didn't come along and before we always get paid our pop or beer or cigarettes, Coke, chocolate and so-on in our PX in our camp. If we didn't have any money, then we wrote IOU, IOU and then one day the captain came, "Well if you haven't got any money, you can't buy anything on IOU," he goes. You needed money to buy stuff and so, no money--no beer, no pop, no work. Simple as that. And then he says "Well, if you strike, I'll put you two weeks on bread and water." We laughed, cause it didn't bother. Then we got, each one, a loaf of bread and water were plenty there, so--We were so big and fat anyhow already, so after not even two days he came, "Boys, I got your money, you go back to work." That's all what we wanted. So even the guards, they were happy, they thanked us. They got their money too now, so everybody was happy now. 01:08:50;04
01:08:50;22 01:08:54;14 [00:00:03:22] WCHFT007
:Q-What Did You Do In The Pea Harvest?:
01:08:54;14 01:10:13;28 [00:01:19:12] WCHFT007
:Peas threshing, given dog:
K -01:08:54;14 We went a double, the camp that was 240, 250 guys were divided and some of them worked in the pea vinery, that's when they...it was used like a threshing machine, the vinery, when they brought the vines with the peas to the vinery and then they either put them in bags or put the, all the vines on a pile that they all went in the canning company in Barron or in Rice Lake, and Cameron. And put them in cans, either work in the boiler room although that was no hard work, it was all kids play for us. So were in good shape, they seemed to enjoy it. 01:09:39;17 Matter of fact, we were out in a cow pasture, just this one barbed wire around it with these tents, two men to a tent, and then one German family from town came. They want to go on vacation, and they had a St. Bernard dog, and they didn't know what to do with him because the dog only understood German. So they came and asked the commander if they bring the dog in for two weeks...yeah, so, why not? And then we had someone to play with at the end...we played dog (tag?) and everything else...that was just a marvelous time we had then. 01:10:13;16
01:10:13;28 01:10:18;15 [00:00:04:17] WCHFT007
:Q-Much Contact With People In Town, In Barron...?:
01:10:18;15 01:11:04;04 [00:00:45:17] WCHFT007
:lots of people to speak German with:
01:10:18;16 No, not in town, but out in the pea vinery there were many of them that were, a good part about it in Wisconsin--many people talked German, were from German background, and they talked German. And they talked to us and brought us cigarettes, but we didn't need them because we got cigarettes cheap enought, see--11 cents a pack, any brand you wanted, see? We didn't buy a single pack, we just bought them in boxes, three full boxes at a time. 01:10:48;06 And they brought us sandwiches or some beer sometimes, even, but we didn't needed it. Some of them even invited us in the family home there for a little lunch or something, because they want to talk German, see? 01:11:03;08
01:11:04;04 01:12:16;02 [00:01:11:26] WCHFT007
:met Nazi member in bathroom:
K - One case I remember that was, we were in the canning company in Beaver Dam. Not Beaver Dam, in Rice Lake. One guy, he said, met him in the, in the restroom there, and he said "Don't talk to loud." He lifted his lapel up and there was a Swastika sign from the German Nazi Party, and he said, "The FBI is looking all over me and uh, they think I'm a spy. I'm not a spy, I'm just a member of the Nazi Party." We couldn't care less because Nazi Party was dead, all dead. And I don't know what happened to him then, see though. We didn't report him, see, because we didn't know where to anyway, see so.
Q - Was He American?
K - No, he was a German.
Q - He Was German
K - He was a German but of German-American...of German accent, you know? His parents were German see, so...I don't know what ever happened to him, see though, because we just met him once.
01:12:16;02 01:12:19;08 [00:00:03:06] WCHFT007
:Q-Generally Treated Pretty Well?:
01:12:19;08 01:14:28;11 [00:02:08:29] WCHFT007
:no problems, Lodi, Milk plant Juneau:
K - Oh, excellent. Oh, we were treated excellent, and no matter where we went to because, first of all we never, ever gave the army or the civilian any problems. When we worked, we were young guys, from 20 to 30 years old, in the prime of our life, see? The work what we did there, there was nothing to that work, it was like kid's play, because we were young and strong and healthy and we wanted something to do. So we did something and it turned out to be boring...actually it wasn't boring, so. Because later on when we came from...(Pause)...Rice Lake, Barron, Rice Lake we came down to Camp Lodi and in Lodi it was the same way again, we worked out on a farm fields and on farming, stocking corn and so on. And then we also went to the milk factory in Juneau, in the milk co-op, a farmer's co-op in Juneau, a milk factory, see? And the boss, or the manager, he came over from Germany in, after World War I, and he became the manager of that co-op, that milk factory in Juno. And we replaced the civilians and high-school kids. And the high-school kids and civilians, the people before us, they turned out about one railroad car a shift, see? Didn't take long, the boss came and put the chain to the machine to run faster and we turned out three railroad cars of condensed milk in the same time, so...and we had it excellent here, so. In the meantime, everybody else had the powdered milk, we got fresh milk you see because we are POWs there, we had three shifts and one shift they took two cans of fresh milk, put it in a bag of the bottles, and we took it back to camp. Next day we brought the empty cans back, so we had always fresh milk. That was just excellent work there.
01:14:28;11 01:14:31;23 [00:00:03:12] WCHFT007
:Q-You Were Paid?:
01:14:31;23 01:15:09;29 [00:00:38:04] WCHFT007
:Wages:
K - 01:14:30;23 Oh, yeah, oh we got 10 cents a day, 10 cents an hour, 80 cents a day, and then we got 30 cents...3 dollars a month we got from the German Red Cross. So actually we got, on average we got about between 19 and 22 dollars a month for our working and even if we just worked two hours like down in, in Hoopeston when we went there asparagus harvest, we worked for two hours in the morning cutting asparagus, we got 80 cents pay, because the farmers were happy that we got the work out.01:15:09;26
01:15:09;29 01:16:06;12 [00:00:56:11] WCHFT007
:Q-Compare To German Army Wages?:
K - In where?
Q-In German Army?
K - 2.50 a day, every 10 days 2.50, two marks 50. That was nothing. We had more as a POW here, because you could get more for that money. For 80 cents I bought more than for 2 marks and 50 cents in German army. All you could do is just buy cigarettes and soap, that's it, in German Army, see, so it was entirely different, see, so, because the army furnish you with the rest, everything, so. But over here 10 cents an hour, 80 cents a day, I saved after I left America, I had saved about 90 dollars, I took back to, 90 dollars worth of American money I took back to Germany, see, and they changed that for German money. 01:16:05;28
01:16:06;12 01:17:03;06 [00:00:56:22] WCHFT007
:lots of food at camp:
K - 01:16:06;18 But...we had all to eat what we wanted. Matter-of-fact, we, I'm sorry to say it, we threw more food away in camp than the Germans had to eat over there. See, American guards made us throw that food away. We didn't want to, because we were not used to wasting, but they told us, "Throw it away, or the Quarter-Master comes and cuts your rations." See, though, because the guards eat right with us, and we had German cooks in our camp and then they were cooking and the guards were standing right in line with us. Either the officer or the guards or the sergeant or whoever it was is standing right in line, prisoner of war and guards and so on. They got the identical food that we had because they liked it too because the Germans are good cooks, see so in the German Army. And especially with the good food we had here too. So, we had no problem whatsoever there. 01:17:03;00
01:17:03;06 01:17:06;10 [00:00:03:04] WCHFT007
:Q-You Gain Some Weight?:
01:17:06;10 01:17:42;06 [00:00:35:26] WCHFT007
:Weight and Uniform:
K - Oh, did I. When I got captured I weighed 128 pounds, 1943. When I left America 2 years and 3 months later I weighed 185. The German uniform I had, I saved it at first, I threw it away then because it didn't fit me anymore, so. And besides, I couldn't use it anymore so, because we had all our American uniforms. Brand new, first-class, used uniform that had the PO, POW stenciled on it.
01:17:42;06 01:17:50;27 [00:00:08:21] WCHFT007
:Q-Learning About America?:
01:17:50;27 01:18:59;08 [00:01:08:09] WCHFT007
:impressions of America, pace, space:
K - That one, what I liked right away because in America here, everybody was free, everybody practically could do what you wanted to do, if you stay within the limits. And there was no rushing like over in Europe, it was hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry. Not over here. Everything was so easy going and they got their jobs done. And what we couldn't...comprehend at first, those big, wide-open spaces. You travelled here for miles and miles and miles couldn't see a town, just farmhouses. But in Europe you, you turn your head and you're on another town already, practically, see. And, and over there's rush, rush, rush, over here all so easy-going and that was like, that's what we liked and we fit right in with it, and then, at that time already I had told myself, "If I have a chance to come back, I will come back." And that's what I did and later on the American dream came true, see, so. I enjoyed every minute of it.
01:18:59;08 01:19:03;25 [00:00:04:15] WCHFT007
:Q-Canning Plant In Lodi?:
01:19:03;25 01:20:33;28 [00:01:30:03] WCHFT007
:canning, hemp, farmwork:
K - 01:19:04;05 Canning companies? We worked, in almost every town we went to, we worked in canning companies. We worked in the hemp mills in Juneau cutting hemp. At that time we didn't think of it you could smoke, now they smoke it. At that time we used to rolled it up and make rope out of it, see? And that was a dirty job actually, dusty job. People wore masks and, and after we left already the camp, it was, everyone burned down later on because civilians came there, they were not careful, because everything, the dust was just floating around see. But we had nothing to worry about because we did our job and 01:19:46;14 then we work in canning companies. We worked in Libby, MacNeil and Libby in Hartford canning milk and peas and carrots and red beets and then the Juneau factory we did the milk. Milk, milk and so. Heavy brown steel cans for the Armed Forces and then light aluminum cans for civilian use, and they were shipped all over...And, that was, I believe, my best job what I did at POW here. But we worked on farms here, and stocking, shocking corn and threshing and all of the things. 01:20:31;24
01:20:33;28 01:20:38;29 [00:00:05:01] WCHFT007
:Q-Move Around Camp To Camp?:
01:20:38;29 01:22:19;19 [00:01:40:16] WCHFT007
:Guard stories:
K - 01:20:39;04 Yeah, we went, once we followed just like seasonal . . . like the migrant workers. The same, only we were POWs, see, and we were with the bus, maybe 15, 20 guys in the bus and just one guard. Sometimes not even a guard along, see. And the guard, he was sleeping in the back while we did our work, see, so, and one day at the milk factory in Juneau, I was the leader for the group there, night-shift, and all at once our camp commander came from Camp Hartford. He came and I made my man here, see, and saluted him and "Group so-and-so, at work, 15 or 18 at work here. No problems here. Where is the guard?" I knew where he was, so I said, "I will get him. Captain, I will get him." So I went back in the, in the breakfast room, there had two benches put together and was laying down, and the rifle was laying on the top of the bench. I woke him, and he had to clean his eyes first, see, and no problem, see. We were in the pea vinery in Waunakee, and the guard, a young guy too yet, he says, "Come on, now we do a little bit target practicing." So we took a cover from the milk can, put them on the fence post and then we could take the rifle and. We would never go that in a German camp or something like that, but in America, no problem. The people go, everybody liked it here. There was, where would we go? Where would we go? (coughs)01:22:19;18
01:22:19;19 01:22:29;11 [00:00:09:22] WCHFT007
:Q-In Beaver Dam?:
01:22:29;11 01:22:41;10 [00:00:11:29] WCHFT007
:Beaver Dam Hemp Mill:
K - In Beaver Dam, yeah, that way, in the hemp mill there in Beaver Dam, the hemp mill...That was a short time there, we weren't too long there. From there we came to Hartford, see, so...
01:22:41;10 01:22:44;07 [00:00:02:27] WCHFT007
:Q-Not Harvesting Hemp?:
01:22:44;07 01:24:41;06 [00:01:56:25] WCHFT007
:Onions and Feast:
K - No, we were harvesting there, then we (?) also. Not just in hemp. We ran red beets, we worked out in the fields with farmer, he needed 10, 15 guys then to work out and pull the red beets and put them in. And one farmer, he called 10, 15 guys, or so, 20, and we went to the Horicon Marsh, and there we had to pull onions out. And he said he would be happy if we got half of the onions out in two days. One day wasn't over yet, three-quarters of a day and the whole field was done. That's over 2 acres. He was so pleased with it he gave us a supper that was just like a wedding feast. All in the room, and then white tablecloth and everything with the wine there and the guards were there and that was a German farmer also. He, he came in, his ancestors came from Germany but they all talked fluently German, see, and we had a feast at the. We were, he was so happy that we got all those onions out in three-quarter of a day what he expected us to do in two days. Because wherever we went, we never, ever had any problems with the civilians up in the farm or in the factories because we did our job, and...because what else would you do? If you goof-off or if you make any mistakes, you suffer for it. Either you get cut out from the job, then you go back to camp and a different job and then you don't like it. If you like a job, you do it the way you want it and the way the farmer want it or the boss wanted it and there was no problem there.
01:24:41;06 01:24:45;17 [00:00:04:11] WCHFT007
:Q-Loose Security?:
01:24:45;17 01:26:24;17 [00:01:38:26] WCHFT007
:Loose Security:
K - Very, very loose. Normally, when camp start out, there's a guard on every corner of the surroundings, see. And later on, there's just one guard in the furthest corner, and that was it. That's only time and it was in Hartford. We were sleeping out in tents, it was so noisy inside the ballroom, there was about 3-400 guys there and you were coming and going in different shifts, see, and talking and so on and we decided to go out in the park. We had, we put up tents, six men to a tent, and then one night we didn't hear anything. Next morning we had heard that the guardhouse burned down. The guard, he was sleeping and his rifle right next to the coal stove, and then the ammo in his rifle exploded, was so hot. And then the fire department came, but didn't even hear them coming by there. That was the only guardhouse there was in that whole, territory. It was a big farm, a big park there see. And then we had our soccer field was out by the park there, no guard, no fence around it, nothing. Up in Barron, Rice Lake we had one single barbed wire around it, that was it. Where would we go? We didn't wanna' go anyplace. If you're happy you don't have to fence them in and then lock them up or chain them up, but you. We did our job and there were no complaints from the guards whatsoever, and the farmers.
01:26:24;17 01:26:49;12 [00:00:24:25] WCHFT007
:Q-How Did You Know Your Job?:
01:26:49;12 01:28:06;16 [00:01:17:00] WCHFT007
:transport, Knowing Work:
K - On the farm, well, we went...the farmer or, or the factory owner or the 10, 15, 20 guys from camp, then the school-bus came, or army truck came and then we went in there, in the back of the truck with the guard there,. And then the farmer or the factory owner told then, "Well, we go out of here." Most of us knew already what to do, without even being told because, they were right, they showed us there, they'd take the rake with the ????? with the hemp, roll it up and then bound it up and make a string out of it, make a bundle with them, you've done fine. We knew it, only showed once, see, and then the factory, in the canning company, then we had red beets or corn. On the receiving after the cans come out of the machine on the big table you take a string, a belt like, and then 10, 15, 20 cans around and then put them down in the basket. From there they go in the boiler-room, see,.So it was...no heavy brain work whatsoever see, so...We know what to do there.
01:28:06;16 01:30:07;25 [00:02:01:07] WCHFT007
:Ladder Story:
K - One, one day I remember too, and...four guys of us contract them. He was at one time the old sheriff, the retired sheriff from Columbia County, from Beaver Dam. He hired four guys and the guard dropped us off on the intersection there on Highway 60 and some other road there, and by mistake the guard dropped us on the wrong side, on the wrong road, and here we were sitting there 'til noon, nothing to do. Smoking cigarettes and laying the shade under the tree by that one house there. And all at once the guard came, the commander came, and here we were laying there, we didn't move 10 feet...because the guard, he got a balling out because he dropped everyone at the wrong spot. He should have dropped us on the next road there. There I worked for a mason contractor, and he was at that time a retired sheriff from Columbia County. And I worked for a mason he had employed, and he had to put a new chimney up on that one house. And then he say "Kurt, the concrete chimney cap." About that big around with a hole in the middle there..."That's gonna' be up on top there, and you must..." Ladder like that. "How would you get it up?" It was just him and me, he was up there by the chimney, and I was down below, and what I did, I put the chimney cap around my neck, and then climbed...But foolish of me, I wouldn't do it today anymore. Climbing up that ladder, but then going from the ladder, on the end of it...it was a long one there, 20-footer...going on the roof. I did not go over there, I kicked the ladder out, even though I hauled it up, and then he came and pulled me over that hump that, you know. I got it up in piece, one piece, but I wouldn't do it again today. No way.
01:30:07;25 01:30:13;12 [00:00:05:17] WCHFT007
:Q-Kind Of Like Migrant Workers?:
01:30:13;12 01:30:47;28 [00:00:34:16] WCHFT007
:Like Migrant Workers:
K - We were just like migrant workers because we moved from, when the corn harvest was done we went down to red beets, from red beets to the onions and carrots and so on, see, so. Whenever the harvest was done, we worked, we went to a next town, to the next camp, see, and then from that camp again we branched out again to individual towns. But we enjoyed it because we seen something from America. We seen something of how people live (?). It was an education for us. |
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